Elizabeth: As I understood you, you shared that far from being a holy man, a Toltec nagal being is a being that best reflects for us where our spirit is at, at any point in time. Am I correct in how I have defined nagal?
THÉUN MARES: Yes, undoubtedly. Because you must realise that we can't have gaps in our knowledge, so we have to go through all sorts of experiences, which is why I find the term "holy man" rather funny!
Elizabeth: How did you find out that this was to be your role in this lifetime?
THÉUN MARES: Well, that really came about as a result of the restoration of my memory.
Elizabeth: And what did it mean to you to find out that this was your role as Toltec? You were still fairly early on in your life, weren't you, age-wise?
THÉUN MARES: To tell you the truth, I freaked out. I couldn't imagine how I was ever going to fulfil this role. And especially as I restored more and more of my memory, and I began to understand more and more where humanity is really at. So unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, I am not one of those people who looks upon being nagal as being very glamorous, or being very holy, or sitting in some safe place and telling people, "Peace brother!"
For me, it is literally having to roll up the sleeves, and having to do some very hard work at helping people to sort out the problems in their lives.
But as my memory was restored, and I started to see where humanity is at, it was quite shocking to me to realise that where humanity is at today, and to really be able to help people in a meaningful way, by meaningful I mean really being able to change their life, is actually a huge challenge. Which is why I said that the more I started to see what a challenge it is, the more I freaked out.
So far from being very enamoured with the idea that I am nagal, quite frankly I didn't like it at all!
Elizabeth: There is a huge responsibility that comes with this role.
THÉUN MARES: Absolutely.
Elizabeth: How did your parents, and your childhood, your careers, up until that point, how did they prepare you for this role? If at all?
THÉUN MARES: Amazingly so. I actually started my career off in the theatre. I became a professional dancer, a classical dancer. I also studied Spanish dance, as well as folk dancing, or what is better known as national dancing, which really entails the national dances of Europe, Eastern Europe, as well as Russia.
And my experience in the theatre was an unbelievable experience. I started off in the theatre because I had always been drawn to the performing arts. I suppose why I was drawn to the performing arts was once again not so much because of the glamour of being on stage, but it is the wonderful opportunity of being able to go out onto that stage, and give the audience your everything. So although there are many, many performers who become performers simply because they enjoy the limelight, and they enjoy the applause, the flowers, and everything that comes afterwards, for me it never was about that. It was about what I saw as a marvellous privilege of one; being able to give full expression to yourself, and secondly, in that expressing, to be able to touch people's hearts, to give them something of what I see is the beauty of life, and that is what really attracted me.
So, in that respect, my years in the theatre was wonderful preparation for the work I am doing now. But I suppose, what was the greatest benefit that I drew from being in the theatre was learning that we only have one chance. When that curtain goes up, you are out there, and whether you make a mess of what you are supposed to be doing, or whether you deliver a brilliant performance, it is not like in the movies, when they can simply cut, and then the director says, "Take two," "Take three," "Take four," until you get it right. On the live stage you have got one chance, and one chance only.
In other words, early on in the theatre, and this was before I restored my memory, before I knew anything about Toltec, the one principle of life that I learnt to understand very well, is that we have only one chance, and either we mess it up, or we just give it our all. Whether it is the best performance we have ever delivered, or not, we give it our all, and we allow the audience to be the judge of it. And that has stood me in such good strength right throughout the years, in terms of the work I am doing now. Because, once again, I see myself, I see all of us, as only having one chance in life.
After I left the theatre, I actually went into education, primarily again, with the performing arts. I taught the performing arts; principally, classical dance, in the schools in South Africa. And that of course gave me my teaching experience, if you like, but again for me teaching was not so much a question of teaching a syllabus, or teaching technical movements -- obviously that is part and parcel of it -- but the part of teaching which I most enjoyed, was being able to guide my students into understanding themselves, and how they express themselves through the medium of dance. That was tremendously rewarding, and I learned a lot because many of my children, many of my pupils, were actually problem children. Doctors and psychiatrists had advised their parents to send these children to classical dance classes, in that the discipline would help them. So really, my students were a wide range, and across the board, just people. But either people who were adhering very normally and very obediently to whatever their social system was, or children that were absolutely rebellious and delinquent, and it was my privilege to guide all of them towards a greater understanding of themselves and how they fit into life around them.
And then from there I went on to be a school inspector, where I found myself having to train young teachers, and that I also thoroughly enjoyed. Because once again I said to my young teachers, "Look, you have already learned at teacher training colleges, etc, how to teach, but now I'm going to teach you how to work with people.” And I really greatly enjoyed that, and the teachers I was training, they also thoroughly enjoyed that.
So, all in all, all of my previous careers had a great impact and a great influence on how I approach my present work.
Elizabeth: If you found your role that emerged as nagal whilst you were still teaching in the schools, and having found that out, you said that it freaked you out, how did you make that transition then from being in the formal teaching world, to taking on your role as nagal if it was freaking you out?
THÉUN MARES: Well it was freaking me out, so I thought that I would just hide in the Department of Education for ever and a day. But power really sorted that out for me. Because just when I thought that I had worked myself into a position in the Department of Education where I could hide there for ever, and escape my fate as nagal, the whole political situation in South Africa changed. And quite frankly, I suddenly found myself without a job!
Elizabeth: Having then left the Department of Education, how did you initiate your role as Toltec nagal?
THÉUN MARES: Well, after I left the Department of Education I knew that the inevitable time had come but I was really waiting to receive suitable confirmation that it was the right time to act. So, although I knew that the time had come, still I needed to know the exact timing, before I moved. And also, I needed confirmation in terms of, if I do move, how should I best move. So, what happened was, for a little while, I helped a friend of mine out in terms of his own business, because by then I had quite a lot of business experience as well, as an entrepreneur, and this was in between everything else that I did, on and off. And it was whilst I was busy helping him out, in getting his own business off the ground, that it started to become clear to me how I should actually be approaching this.
And soon after I felt that I didn't need to help him any more, I decided to write an article, which I put into what was then, quite a popular esoteric magazine in South Africa. And it really was just an article about Toltecs and their purpose within the world today. And in that way I drew together my first unit.
Elizabeth: What was your purpose then, as nagal in this lifetime? Did you have a specific purpose in this lifetime?
THÉUN MARES: Well, that's a hard one to answer, because when we spoke earlier, you asked me what is a nagal, and I said that a nagal is really somebody who reflects for us most accurately where we find ourselves at within the process of evolution. So, in that respect, every nagal's purpose is in fact the same. So really, for me, that has never changed. It is bringing people to an understanding of where they find themselves at within their own growth, if you like.
Elizabeth: How then does that differ from being a lightbringer? What is the difference between a nagal and a lightbringer?
THÉUN MARES: Essentially, there is no real difference. There is only the One Life, there is only the One Truth, therefore the only real difference between, if you like, a Toltec nagal, or more accurately, let's talk in modern terms, a man of knowledge -- the only difference between a man of knowledge versus a lightbringer, lies in the approach.
As I mentioned before, we, as human beings, have two main faculties. The one is what we call the thinking principle, which is the mental principle, and the other one is what we call the intuitive principle, which we call the heart principle. Now the man of knowledge takes the path of least resistance, in other words, it's the easier approach, and I am not saying a man of knowledge takes the easy approach because it is necessarily better, or because it is necessarily easy, but when I say it is easier, it is that it is more easily assimilated by the apprentice.
So a man of knowledge takes the approach of first of all addressing himself to the thinking principle of the apprentice. And then, once the thinking principle has been duly changed, so as to meet the reality of life head-on, rather than escaping into all forms of fantasy, and wishful thinking, etc., once that has been accomplished, in other words, once the apprentice has been brought into thinking clearly and objectively, then slowly but surely he is introduced to what one might call the heart approach, which is the intuitive, feeling approach. Which actually is a lot more difficult for the apprentice to grasp, in that, as opposed to the thinking principle, which is very rational, and quite logical really, the heart principle is irrational, because it is intuitive. And therefore, it is a lot more difficult to grasp.
The lightbringer, on the other hand, goes straight to the heart, and speaks to the heart. The difficulty in that lies in that the apprentice does not always understand what is being presented to him in the moment. But that does not worry the lightbringer, in that if he knows, if he feels, if he can sense, that he has touched the student or the apprentice at the level of the heart, he knows that understanding will in due time come.
So really, the difference in approach we might sum up in saying that the man of knowledge comes from the angle of addressing the mind first, and then leads the apprentice to the heart; the lightbringer starts with the heart, and he trusts that the apprentice has enough emotional and mental maturity to see to the development of his mind by himself, as an adult, as a responsible adult.
Elizabeth: Was there something specific in your life that made you realise that your role was going to be changing?
THÉUN MARES: Not really. I had suspected that my fate was unfolding in such a way that I may one day find myself on the path of the lightbringer, but there was no clear indication of that, and there wasn't ever a time when I really thought very much about it.
But I suppose the first, if you like, positive indication which I got in that respect was an injunction I received, if I recall the date, it was in 1995 when I received that injunction. And that injunction had everything to do with establishing upon the physical plane what I was told then would become known as the Temple of Peace, and it was clear from the injunction that only a lightbringer could fulfil that purpose. That was the first clear indication I had, that I would find myself in this lifetime still, on the path of the lightbringer.
But it was only several years after I received the injunction, that it became clear to me, very clear, that I was undergoing a massive inward change. And that slowly but surely, my whole approach towards the teachings, as well as towards life, was changing, and I found myself coming more and more from the angle of the lightbringer. Until it was abundantly clear to me that my destiny has now changed, from that of a man of knowledge, to that of a lightbringer.
Elizabeth: In your books you indicate that 1995 was a very big year for humanity. What was the big change in this year, 1995?
THÉUN MARES: I'll have to go back a step in order to answer that. In the life of the individual who is busy seeking real answers to his or her life, and by that I mean the purpose of our lives upon the physical plane, the purpose of physical incarnation, if you like, there comes a time when inwardly, we know, without a shadow of a doubt, that our old lives are over for ever -- there is no way we can turn back the clock, and there is no way we can ever go back to the way of life, and by way of life I mean everything -- the way we approach life, the way we think of life, the way we feel about life, everything, changes, and we can never go back to doing it like we used to do. Technically speaking we call that the knock of the spirit. In other words, our true self has made its presence felt, and we call that the knock of the spirit.
Where the knock of the spirit happens collectively for humanity as a whole, we call it the Cry of the Eagle. And that is what happened in June 1995. The Cry of the Eagle was sounded. In other words, the spirit of man made its presence felt. And that was a momentous change in the history of humanity, although many people are totally unaware that it even happened. So they are aware of the fact that it is busy changing rapidly, but they do not understand why.
Elizabeth: So, often one might find that people get fired from their jobs, or relationships fall apart since that time. Is this possibly an effect of that happening, that inward changes have been made but not acknowledged outwardly?
THÉUN MARES: Absolutely. But realise that people were fired from their jobs, and relationships fell apart before 1995!
But I know what you mean, because there has been a huge increase in that ever since 1995, and especially as we enter this world recession which we are busy entering now, economists today are no longer trying to hide the fact that the world recession we are busy entering now is the greatest economic recession that the world has ever known. And of course, whenever that happens, all the personal issues start arising, and the first place where it tends to arise is in our relationships -- whether it's our relationships at home, or relationships at work, but issues in relationships start to arise. This is really not surprising, because all of life is but a system of relationships.
People tend to think that it's my wife and myself and my children, and my family and my friends, and my neighbours, and so on. But really, it's not about wives, and children, and neighbours -- it's about relationships.
So, with the Cry of the Eagle having sounded, what this means technically for humanity is that humanity has been called upon to change its life and its approach towards life in a most meaningful way. And of course, the more we resist change, the more change has to be forced upon us. So quite literally, the way we see the effects today, is, as you yourself have noticed, more and more people are losing their jobs by the day - whether they are fired, or whether they are being retrenched - and relationships are starting to suffer terribly, because people are being forced into change.